Second Plant for the Dreamliner?.......gone.
Headquarters.......gone.
Will the whole company pull out?

Mngmnt wants to break the Union...and would love to move everything to "right to work states" that is their goal.

Average wage in Everett is 26.00 per hour..average wage in S.C is 14.00 per hour...you do the math.

Huh? I just filled up yesterday and paid $2.79 gal. Not sure where they got their numbers at.

ISO

Everett has the Navy Base. Charleston lost their shipyard years ago.

Hank won't be bothered with such trivial matters such as facts. They interfere with his entire world view.

You mean your made-up figures to suit your opinions?

YES. Yes indeed.

http://www.boomerater.com/newsurroundings/277-everett-washington-relocation-retirement-advice

Stats about Everett
Total Population: 91,290
Cost of Living
Median Household Income: $40,100
Median Home Value: $168,300
State sales tax: 6.5%




Susan or Sarah?

Regardless, that would be home values from BEFORE your buttbuddy Bush trashed the Economy and ran home values into the schitter.

The only way the state could have avoided this is to make the state a "right to work state." But with the unions (and indians) running this state that would be shooting themselves in the foot so off to SC for the 2nd line. The libs and unions would rather lose the war then admit their errors.

I wonder if I'll like it there??? I hear the fishing is pretty good and have heard much much much better things about the women. Hmmm!

I'll find out soon enough as I'm spending a couple of weeks there around the holidays.

p.s. As for the wages a junior workforce will not be making on average as much as a senior workforce. In this case <5 yrs @ SC and >20 years @ PS. The wages should even out over 20 years or so.

The weather can get ugly in that area......real ugly. Glad I don't have to make the decision of whether or not to move.
Cost of living/doing business here is a huge incentive to get out. Higher unemployment here means more fishermen on MY rivers....
All you bastages.......OUT!

All you have to do is drive by the Machinist's Union building near the Everett plant and get a look at the artwork/statue out front to get a feel for why Boeing might move manufacturing somewhere else. The statue is of a family with a strike sign standing next to a burn barrel.

It's not just about busting the union. I've lived my entire life being blackmailed periodically by Boeing. Only now they don't hold as much clout around here as they once did. I think it's more of Boeing picking up it's toys and going somewhere else to play...somewhere where they hold more sway over the populace...and can hold that populaces feet to the fire when they need to. SC should be careful what it wishes for as the demands have only just begun. Once entrenched they'll find out what Boeing is really all about.

Response to Second 787 Line Announcement
October 28, 2009 - "Boeing has betrayed our loyalty once again, walking away from our discussions just like they walked away from Seattle eight years ago to move to Chicago.

We tried very hard to reach an extended agreement with Boeing. We listened closely to what executives said, and suggested ideas to meet their needs. We offered concrete, real-world solutions.

But I can tell you now, no matter what Boeing says or implies, the truth is this: We did offer Boeing a 10-year contract, and even offered to go longer than that. And when we did, they seemed stunned, and stopped talking.

It was obvious to me that Boeing wasn’t really interested in working with us. They didn't take our proposals seriously and they never offered any proposals of their own. Most of the time, they didn’t even take notes.

It's now clear that Boeing was only using our talks as a smoke screen, and as a bargaining chip to extort a bigger tax handout from South Carolina.

I haven't reported this before -- not to our members and certainly not to the media -- because Boeing had asked for confidential talks. My word means something, so I said nothing, even while the company was leaking half-truths to reporters.

When our team asked Boeing if 10 years was going to be enough for them, they didn't respond. And when I asked them to confirm that the extended contract would secure the second 787 line for Washington state, their reply was only: "Well, it would be helpful." But they would not commit to anything.

Still, we tried to get a deal, because I know that's what our members and our community wanted. To do that, we were willing to discuss any issue to get a deal that we could recommend to our members. We floated ideas on health care costs, wages, pensions and lump sums.

None of this mattered to Boeing. They didn't want solutions, but only a scapegoat.

Our seven-week strike last year is not the reason the 787 is already more than 120 weeks behind schedule.

Instead of investing in our shared future and a highly talented workforce in a region ideally suited for aerospace, Boeing has decided to double-down on its failed 787 strategy and place an ill-advised, billion-dollar bet on a strategy that’s a proven loser.”

This morning Boeing says the decision wasn't about incentives, so reports that talks with union and government representatives were just for appearance's sake are probably true. Boeing CEO said the decision was based on labor costs. That pretty well sums it up.

I'm no labor expert, but I find it surprising that you can actually hire a talented machinist for $14/hr, even in this economy. A family man would starve at that wage. It would make more sense to move the family into a tent and poach fish and game. Just my rambling thought.

Sg

It clearly is a labor cost issue. Any negotiations with unions up here, were merely a smokescreen to get more concessions from SC.

I have worked with some folks who came from the Naval yard in Charleston when it broke up, and as a general rule, they weren't smart enough to pour piss out of a boot before they put in on.

Within 2 years, I imagine that there will be real issues with the quality of the labor force in SC. That point was made above in that the work force will be 20 years "younger". If you are a Boeing employee around the Everett area, you could probably score a much higher position in SC in a couple of years. Skilled labor for that particular plant is going to be in high demand. I imagine that if you travelled to that area this time of year, it is pretty nice. Summer time, forget it.

Simple fact is most of the major manufacturing in this country is going to be moving into Right to Work the red states. It has been coming for the last 10 years.

Actually it has more to do with the Fact that Lindsey Graham has a senior spot on the Armed Services commitee, something which Murray & Cantwell do not.
Did everyone suddenly forget about this tanker deal Boeing's been sucking dick to land?

I don't know about the quality of work done by a machinist here versus in SC, but something about paying people $14 an hour to build a commercial plane that I may be flying on doesn't sit well with me.

Boys, the current median home price for the greater Everett area as of today is $259,000. According to Charlestonehomes.com as of June 2009 the median home price in Charleston was $186,000.

Folks down that way can't be that untalented. They seem to do just fine building the Toyotas, BMWs, Hyundais, and Nissans. And according to most major auto publications their quality, fit and finishes are still bettter than the UAW constructed stuff.

A lot of Boeing workers remind me of spoiled X wives that sat around for years bitching that they deserved better treatment while putting out less and thinking they were irreplaceable. If big daddy leaves it's going to hurt. Count on it. That said I don't see it happening. They just have to much property around here to devalue it that much. Who would buy it and put themselves into a position that would involve hiring a bunch of old x wives.

Several years ago my buddy who supervised about 30 software folks at Boeing came to work and found that everyone but him was being layed off. Seems they could hire 12 Russians at the cost of one worker here. My buddy said it was sad indeed, but if the company didn't do it, they wouldn't survive.

Too bad that over the years the relationship between the Union and the Company has sorrowed to the point, where the spoken goal by the Union in the last strike was to break the company. When those kind of things get said, your not even thinking anymore.

Its all about labor costs, but at the same time, its more about the failure of both sides to maintain a healthy relationship based in reality. The Union and the Company own this together. But, as usual it will be the average worker who pays the price.

Sorry, it has to do with Quid Pro Quo politics of "What are you going to do for my district that is going to make me look like a hero and get me re-elected?"

No sheet. Back in the mid 70's a professor drove a Chevy Blazer. He told us about the main bearing that detroit forgot to put in the engine. Hence came the cliche, dont buy a car made on Monday or a Friday.

Read an article somewhere, about the difficulties of a manager at GM. Had an employee that wasnt in his work space, a lot of hours. Found him in a bar during the shift, while on the clock. Had him suspended for several weeks. The union came back and mgt, above her, repealed the suspension and paid his wages. He came in and thanked her for the vacation time to go hunting, with pay.

That and the long term, post employment health benefits that add hundreds, actually thousands of dollars to the price of a new car, are one of the reasons GM is in trouble. Ford was no better in many ways.

Unfortunately, Unions think, they are indestructible, A single male driving for the teamsters gets more than 800 dollars a month going into the cost of his medical. The same amount as a family of four. I had a slow month and the boss added up the hours. I was a half hour short, of qualifying for the 800 dollar medical payment. Actually he was off by one hour. I was referred to another union shop looking for drivers. No way was he going to get hung out for 800 bucks, when he had at least 5 other drivers who could make up the 80 hours it requires to get health care. I dont blame the owner one bit. No profits no jobs.

$800/ month for a family of four ain't sheeit.
Try finding private medical insurance for a family of four for that.

Hell, $800 a month would barely cover groceries for a family of four if the two kids are teenage boys.

i dont disagree. That was late 2006 and I dont know what the current figure is now. Its a flat rate in the contract. Im not under a union contract these days. They were getting about a buck an hour raise each year and there was probably an increase in the medical payment. But a single guy is contributing a lot of his contract value, to subsidize the larger families.
In the beginning of 2006 I was paying no more than 300 a month. I dont remembers exactly, cause, it was a personal plan and they had just raised my rate, cause I had crossed over the 50 age mark. Every five years, they bump you up. Work was slow, so I dumped the insurance.

They had some policies that I didnt like. I bought my glasses thru walmart which was much cheaper than other stores. But they told me, the union would not reimburse walmart. And, walmart did not bill thru the union. I didnt bother claiming it. I dont remember the copay or the deductible. They didnt want us to bank with wells fargo either. But, I dont know any bank, that has a union contract. Teamster national was not supporting the locals, like they should have. Guy who ran CANS out of the terminals wanted to unionize. One of the port terminals' longshoreman walked off the job. National dropped the ball and the walkout didnt pay off.

So, all those folks in SC are a bunch of stupid inbreds and us Lefties in Pugetropolis are God's gift to the green earth? Pretty funny and ignorant at the same time.

If we're so smart up here why do we keep voting in the same folks who have run this state into the ground? Supreme intelligence on our part? Or just plain elitism?

Gregoire walking the picket lines with the machinist this last go around sends a pretty strong message. Remember though, there is no budget shortfall. Hahahaha......

At least now I know WHERE the economy is getting better.......looks like one of GG's suppliers dried up. Guess who will be picking up the slack? Got a mirror?

I don't see it as much about being able to teach people, but more so about providing an incentive to these newly trained people to work hard and produce a quality product.

I don't know what other employment opportunties exist in that area, but I can't imagine it being terribly difficult to find a job that pays at least $14 an hour. I see this leading to a fairly high turnover rate, and a high turnover rate in airplane construction cannot be a good thing.

$14/hr is what they pay tweekers to slap together Mobile Homes.

So you don't refute my statement that this 'move' has only to do with political appeasement, since it doesn't significantly affect the bottom line?

That's a pretty good living wage for someone to drive rivits all day long! And they call them self Machinist? Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most of these Machinist trained within BOEING. Machinist just sounds so official like they have a college degree or somthing. I beleive most have just a H.S education? HIGHLY OVERPAID IMO! I hate unions! They artificially drive up the cost of goods and labor. What happened to the free market were good, honest, hardworking people thrived and the lazy useless scum of the earth, well who cares! Like stated earlier, please correct me if I'm wrong.

just my .02

Boeing is a private business that offers shares to the genereal public. Their number one goal, as with most all businesses it to turn a profit.

Since two recessions back in '99 and '01 Boeing has steadily increased profits. One of the major contributions to this was reducing overhead. Generally speaking that tends to be labor. They did this by outsourcing their manufacturing.

Now with this recession, the company is looking for alternatives to increase profits and rebuild their net worth. Relocating manufacturing/assembly has become a very viable option along with overhead reductions, again. Hank has provided some extremely viable statistic to some of the overhead any company in Washington has to deal with. I can add another, health care coverage. This states laws and regulations allows only three health care providers to offer coverage, in doing so the costs of annual premiums has become exceptionally high for the companies that do offer the benefit of providing health insurance.

IMHO unions destroy companies. Historically speaking unions were developed to protect people, provide a safe working enviornment with justifiable wages back in the Industrial Revolution. We now have orginazations, WISHA, OSHA, Department of Labor & Industries, etc., to ensure that people continue to recieve these rights. Unions serve no purpose but to continually demand more/better benefits for less work.

I find it ironic that Boeing employees have the audacity to expect/want more. The company provides exceptional wages, premium health care, 401K, extended educational opportunities, paid sick leave, paid holidays, and a safe work enviornment. WTH, that isn't enough? I'd have to say those are better working conditions/opportunities then most of the general poplulation has.

A few other points people need to consider: Boeing in not a Socialized company, they are not a nonprofit organization, they are a privately owned business. The unions and local government have been beating them up for decades. At some point and time people get tired of this, companies get tired of this, and they are going to leave.

I own a manufacturing company in Washington State, I employ "Real Machinists." Over the course of my career I have worked with a mulitude of former Boeing machinists. As a whole, they were some of the laziest, disconcerning, inexperienced people to work with. In this group of people there was one person who was an asset to the company. He wasn't a machinist, he was a tool maker. From past experiences I highly doubt that I would ever hire a former Boeing machinist.

It's not easy being a business owner in this state, I am confronted with these issues, on a much smaller scale, on a daily basis. I deal with a multitude of taxes, state/federal laws, regulations, enviornmental polices, etc. All of those are costs of doing business and I accept them. But, if the union ever attempted to get involved, telling me I need to pay my employees more, give them better benefits, more days off, etc. I'd tell them to pack sand which would result in moving the company or closing the doors. In all reality that would never happen but the last thing an owner wants/needs is someone telling them how to operate their business.

The employees at Boeing take for granted that they have jobs, 10% of the state doesn't. IMO they are a fortunate group of people. And the state......Well, they are fkn themselves and the people they represent. The plans for relocations by Boeing should never have reached this point. The loss in incomes and tax basis will be devasting to the local community and economy. Lost revenue is tough to get back, kind of paralells lost fishing opportunities.

Not here! I don't blame Boeing one bit. Business is Business! If you could lower your overhead in your busniess by say, 10k a yr, wouldn't you do it?

My point was KK, if in fact a lot of these workers just drive rivets all day long, why would you pay them $25 an hr when you could pay someone say $15 an hr and get the same level of work? I mean how much training does it take to drive a rivet?

they should have never put that pile of [censored] up, what a bunch of dipshits.

No $hit!!

You guys are a crack up. SC people aren't smart enough to build planes cause they're Republicans. Funny stuff there.

I went to work at Boeing about 13 years ago. To get hired I attended Boeing's training class, 6 weeks of unpaid training at the Auburn facility. My 8th grade metal shop class was more intense. Boeing training consisted of learning to drill holes, measure, drive a couple rivets by hand, and cut some metal. Pretty strainuous stuff. The real purpose of the class was to establish who could show up to work on time and follow simple directions. When I started at the Auburn plant I was placed in the Welded Duct building and I built titanium ductwork for the 747. The majority of my co-workers were also new hires. The mantra preached by the "veterans" was "slow down, you will work yourself out of a job". 2 years later I was laid off and I used my union education retraining benies to become a residential appraiser. The medical then was nice, the 401k was nice, watching the politics and other BS go on was entertaining, but as a whole I don't miss it. BTW, my starting wage as a grade 4 mechanic was $13.15 an hour. I was at about $15.25 when I left.

If the folks down south can build rockets and cars, I'm sure they can be taught to assemble an airplane. The foreign car companies sure seem to think so anyway. Toyota and BMW aren't kicking in the door to set up plants here but Sonic has no problem opening a few drive ins here.

Funny they will stand out there for months for a 3% raise--then make no effort when something this big--787 to SC-I would think in force they would Rally for that.

BooHoo, one of the funniest threads I've ever read here.

A kid (now in his 40's) that used to work for me stopped by this summer, on vacation. He's been working for Boeing for 20+ years. Told me that the union and union rules were going to kill the company in Washington. If I remember correctly, he works on wing sections for the 787. Poor Blue Water. Going the way to the dinosaurs. Must be the Republicans fault, though, since all those idiotic workers in South Carolina keep electing them.

On another vein, how's that union thing working out for Detroit? What's the median price of a home in Detroit these days? Pooooor babies.......lmao

Nobody noticed when they mentioned there would still be some experienced mech's in SC making $26 an hour that the article called them "contractors"? Contractors normally do not receive benefits. Huge savings.

to some complaining about our states business climate....our state has one of the best business climates in the nation. And if you want to be able to draw from the talent pool that our state draws you should be happy to pay a bit more for that.

seen more business' opening......or closing?
Define good business climate, please.

Is Obama giving handouts there as well??

Keith

(Sorry in advance for this rant but after seeing some of the election results tonight... ughhh. How broke do we all have to be for the people of this region to wake up!?!?)
I guess I better start by saying "my name is Erik and I'm a union member". I choose to be ONLY because the (notice I don't say "my") union tells my employer that they have to pay for my health and welfare benefits, which happen to be far superior to what I (or my company) could purchase at just about any price. Selfish I know. However I (not the union) negotiate the rest of my compensation package because I (not the union) decide what I am worth. As workers we have the ability to make choices which allow us to bargain for ourselves. Am I willing to produce at a level that justifies my cost? Am I willing to do what it takes to constantly better myself? Are my interests aligned with the company's? There will always be the BWPs of the world that keep the top rungs of the ladder free by striving to be no better than average and bitching that they should have more.
The bottom line is this- whether you're democrat or republican, for business or for the worker- if the business does not prosper, there will be less opportunity for the worker. Companies operate for one reason- to turn a profit. Unfortunately, there are at least 3800 workers in the Puget Sound that won't get an opportunity at all thanks to the machinists. Unbelievable! Unless they change their ways, there will be much more to go.

I know how we could help those that want to work and see business prosper in this state. Let's package up Gregoire, labor leaders and their brainwashed brethren and all the rest of the bleeding hearts and buy them one way tickets to SC.

Why don't we just settle for a single one way ticket for you? And the next person who wants to complain about one of the best business climates in the nation can get one too.

All the perfume in the world isn't going to make that roadkill smell any better. The handwriting is on the wall. Boeing airplanes are going to be built in places other than Washington. I'm thinking my next truck will be either a Ford or Toyota Tundra. Guessing the Tundra will get the nod. Built by people who care about craftsmanship.

Boeing Airplanes were already being built in places other than Washington.

It's a no win situation my friend, and it just got worse. It's people like you that create the business climate. There IS a correlation between your voting habits/ entitlement views and the taxes that both we as individuals, as well as businesses pay in this state. We are all going to pay more now, thank you. With any kind of luck maybe Gregoire will hire all of the unemployed union members to work for the state so we can pay for that too.

lazy people that are not willing to prove their own worth SUCK! By the way, reagrdless of your opinion on experience, talent CAN (and will) be taught.

You're the union worker, right?

So WHO creates the business climate again?

Pot
Kettle
Black

So let me get this straight. You are arguing that the more the taxpayer gives away to corporations the less the taxpayer has to pay in taxes?

"We are all going to pay more now"

Where? Seems SC is going to pay more now not us.

No! This state's governments' expenditures grew yesterday. As business revenues go down or away (as in the case of Boeing) there are less state and local taxes collected. Who do you think is going to make up the delta? In fact, the majority of voters here agreed yesterday that they are willing to do so without having a voice.

Sounds to me like your comprehension skills a a bit clouded today Dan. If you disagree with what I said then make a valid point against it.

What went away? Nothing. This was net new business not existing business.

Your logic seems to be...if everyone were willing to take a pay cut AND give tax breaks and whatever subsidies to the Corps then we'd be better off because they will continue to stay here and demand more pay cuts and more tax breaks and so on and so on....you see where it ends.

Your right, the last thing that WA residents need is more jobs and industry...

So you guys are saying that Forbes magazine is full of sh!t, huh?

Do you read the National Equirer too?

Yeah. Because Forbes is the same as the National Enquirer.

Did you have a big plate of stupid for lunch?

This simply makes no sense at all???? The 787 is using new materials and assembly techniques so there are no experianced workers here or anywhere else in the world! Wierd to see a plane being built with no rivits or body panels. Now the mechanics are gaining experiance every day but most of those are in thier mid 20's and about half are not from Wa. state. In fact many here are anxiously awaiting ramp up in SC so they can get the hell out of this state! The sooner the better! I expect that the day the 2nd line opens in SC the experiance level at both sites will be about the same. And no those employee's will not be migrant workers picking cotton one day and installing Trent 1000's the next!

Boeing left for one reason......one
More money to be made elsewhere. Simple, isn't it?

Sad deal for the families who now are going to have to change a number of things. The ones who just wanted to work in exchange for a decent take home paycheck.

Unions can cause some huge self-inflicted wounds, they can also protect workers from unfair employers.

In this case, Unions lost.

...and unfair employers won. Again.

Not sure you're quite right there. The union going on strike while the Dreamliner was in production might be another reason. The strikes that have plagued the company during every CBA might be another. Our Queen of leader Ms. Gregoire walking the picket lines might be another. Our disdain for large corporations might be another.

To say we didn't lose 3800 jobs is short sighted. Had the business climate in this region been just a little more accomodating we'd have kept those jobs and possibly built on them.

As a business owner in King County I could tell you that our politicians don't give a [censored] about you or me. We get what we ask for. The tax burden will be taken up by the average citizen since they(our elected politicians) can't control their spending.

Put the bong down and actually read his post. You might learn something. A union member saying he's trying to keep his company profitable is a unique idea. If the company doesn't make money his job is vulnerable. Some people are willng to make sure their company is viable in this economy and others just want to stand their ground.

Dan S, other than a zing here or there, do you have anything to add?

" Had the business climate in this region been just a little more accomodating we'd have kept those jobs and possibly built on them. "

What further hand outs would you have liked to see?

I disagree with all of the above. Boeing has been and will continue to be about blackmail. By opening up a full fledged shop in SC they can play the two cities against each other. Sure it's a win to bust the unions and a win to hire cheaper labor but those are a nit compared to what they will be able to extract from the taxpayers in the years ahead.

[/quote]
As a business owner in King County I could tell you that our politicians don't give a [censored] about you or me. We get what we ask for. The tax burden will be taken up by the average citizen since they(our elected politicians) can't control their spending. [/quote]

Since you own a business you must be rich and just greedy. Qiut your bitching, pay your workers more and pay more in taxes so that we citizens can be taken care of.

Stlhd- You don't get it and I totally disagree with your principles. However, I do realize that there are way more of YOU in this state than there are of me. Like it or not the path that we are on now is the path that we will remain on.

I'm confused... Which sort of hand outs are good again?

There's the "Gregoire/Union F'd up again" crowd who thinks she and the union should have been more business friendly folks... But tax/wage concessions to the corporation -- that's a government handout to a corporation... So that's okay, if you're a Republican?

Then there's the "Boeing F'd us" crowd, who thinks the union and collective bargaining are a good thing, even though they just lost thousands of jobs to S.C. and now those folks will be on the unemployment rolls.. That's a government handout to individuals.... So that's okay if you're a Democrat?

The "I'm against all handouts" people would have lost Boeing (greedy bastards) and have thousands of "lazy" folks who ran out of unemployment because, screw them, they should get a job. Now they're stealing your kicker motor and you need to go get a gun.

So which one of these is the good scenario again?

This is captialism. It's free market economics. What exactly are you saying they did wrong?

Did you ever comparison shop for prices on a car, or a TV? Aren't you doing the same thing by playing two retailers against each other? You might wait until a sale to buy a large gift this Christmas -- are you guilty of "extracting" those savings from the manufacturer and retailer -- forcing them to off-shore their operations to China to meet your insatiable need for even cheaper LCD televisions?

The people that own Boeing stock are the ones that pressured them to be more profitable.

I guess you'll have to answer the question for yourself. The fact is- it takes business to provide jobs. Also, it's highly likely that a "handout" to business provides a return...

How 'bout this?

Wash the sand out of your mangina, Nancy.

Other than crying and sniveling consatntly, do YOU have anything to add?

If you don't like my posts, then don't read them. It will surely be no skin off my ass. I'm not obliged to not respond to your drivel when I feel like it, and crying about is is likely to just lead to more commentary from me.

"Stlhd- You don't get it and I totally disagree with your principles. However, I do realize that there are way more of YOU in this state than there are of me. Like it or not the path that we are on now is the path that we will remain on."

How much is one job worth to the taxpayer? If you are Charleston it is worth $118,421 and that's for starters. You seem to be one of those with the mind set that those poor businesses are only providing a service to the taxpayer and shouldn't have to pay any tax. I'm of the other mind set where it should be federal law that no public tax dollars can fund a private enterprise. Otherwise you get what it is....blackmail.
As a business owner did you know the playing field going in? Did you know you had to pay taxes and unemployment insurance and such? If you can no longer afford to play then get out but don't whine to me you cry baby.

"This is captialism. It's free market economics. What exactly are you saying they did wrong? "

Didn't say they did anything wrong just saying that's where I think the big win is from Boeing's perspective. It's perfectly normal these day's to threaten to pull the plug on a city or state unless you are given concessions. What i don't like is our city or state not getting iron clad gaurantees in return. If they had done that the first go around we wouldn't be talking about SC.

BTW, it isn't capitalism....it's socialism. If they were shopping for the best deal without tax payer incentives it would lean towards capitalism.

No, it's really not Socialism.

It's at best capitalism with a hint of government tax breaks (really a subsidy) in this case, but it's a zillion miles from Socialism, despite what the teabaggers may say.

The means of production are still in private (Boeing shareholder) hands here.

Agree but also a zillion miles from capitalism. Subsidies are welfare. Tarrifs are welfare. And yes in private hands so there should be no feeding off of the govt teet or it's Corp welfare.

The subsidies are designed to promote business prosperity. When a business prospers the delta between revenues and expenses increases- it's called profit. Any legitimate business (especially one that answers to shareolders) will reinvest at least a portion of those profits thereby creating growth. Growth increases the tax base and employment opportunity. The state benefits financially from both!

http://www.reclaimdemocracy.org/weekly_2003/state_subsidies_corporations_little_return.html

Interesting aticle. Apparently there is much debate about what kind of return a state gets on their money for the subsidies they offer to corporations to locate and/or stay in a particular location.

That's not necessarily true. Employment opportunity is only created if there is an increased demand for the product. Demand for a product is the only thing that drives employment. Hiring additional workers without a need--increased demand--is fiscally irresponsible, and no shareholder should stand for it. Notice today's headlines that mention the recent recession has shown corporations that they can maintain (perhaps even increase) productivity with less personnel. So all the subsidies and tax breaks in the world will not create jobs; only demand for product creates jobs. And even that may not be true now.

Dan, read the posts again to see if anybody is sniveling. I'd tell you to go [censored] yourself but I'm guessing it doesn't even reach far enough to be handled with two fingers....? Napoleon comes to mind when I read what you have to say.

Some of you folks have me scratching my head. Do you like the business climate in this state? Do you like the leadership we have? The path we're on is not sustainable.

When the Kent teachers were illegally on strike our governor never spoke up about the illegal strike. Who's pocket does she answer to? It ain't the common folk. Walking the picket line with the Boing union doesn't send a good message. You're all ok with that? I'm not. I expect more.

it is an interesting article and definitely has some valid points on the subject. I will say that i think a government has a fiduciary duty to the tax payers when offering corp incentives. That is to ensure that the recipient has enough skin in the game to at least minimize if not prevent that kind of situation. By the way, after reading that article it seemed like Indy just tossed up a hail mary. UAL was one of the most unstable companies in the country at the time.

Don't really care about your prosperity or profit but good on you as long as you aren't using my money to do it. If you are I'll treat you know different than any other welfare recipient.
Growth has major expenses for the state in infrastructure, education, etc. Growth can lead to negative revenue for a state. If your ideal of growth were true then taxes would decline not increase as a state grows.

"Some of you folks have me scratching my head. Do you like the business climate in this state? Do you like the leadership we have? The path we're on is not sustainable."

What path is that? Let me guess.....bus needs to pay less and the individual needs to pay more to artificially prop up the poor bus.

Another example for you people who live in Seattle was Immunex. The city bent over and k'd it's ass paying to widen 15th ave and build car and pedestrian overpasses all in the name of jobs. Before it was even finished Immunex sold out to Amgen who turned around and began massive layoffs. Got their street work and overpasses though. Just say no to corp welfare.

[/quote]
Don't really care about your prosperity or profit but good on you as long as you aren't using my money to do it. If you are I'll treat you know different than any other welfare recipient.
Growth has major expenses for the state in infrastructure, education, etc. Growth can lead to negative revenue for a state. If your ideal of growth were true then taxes would decline not increase as a state grows. [/quote]

ughh!! Are you hittin the bong too?

[/quote]Growth has major expenses for the state in infrastructure, education, etc. Growth can lead to negative revenue for a state. [/quote]

you must be talking about government growth. Please take this message to YOUR governor

That sounds a lot like sniveling to me.

You're not going to piss your pants, are you?

A crying little girl with poopy pants comes to mind when I read your posts.

I'd tell you to open up if you want to see how far it will reach, but I'm pretty sure you'd want to take me up on the offer.

Nope. Talking about job growth which means population growth. Who do you think pays for that growth? Too much tail pipe exhaust for you.

Once again, as a business owner I pay plenty in taxes. I don't get taxed based on my net profit, If I was taxed on that I wouldn't complain. But, being taxed based on my gross is outright criminal.

Also, as a resident of Seattle/King County/Washington State I'd have to say we're already being taxed to a point that is not sustainable. Govenment growth is out of control. The larger our overall government is the more an average citizen has to pay to support their growth. If our state government could control it's growth the average citizen would see more $ in their own pockets.

I don't expect you to understand that though.

Dan, Pee Wee Herman is closer to my impression of you. You don't add anything to the conversation but I hear you squeaking in laughter after every nonsensical comment you make. Sorry you were made fun of as a kid. But, get over it.

An estimated 9 billion dollar deficit.

This is a bit old but still holds true. True to form from Ms. (There is no budget deficit) Gregoire. Just like when the economy was good too many people maxed out their spending.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008061912_spending20m0.html

Stlhead, do you like the path our state is on? If so, why?

And you do? Like tears, bunched up panties, and discontent?

A great addition to any conversation, that's for sure.

The rat pack has been alerted.

Nothing here has changed. KK, I don't need to write a 500 word essay every time to prove to myself I'm so smart. Most of my posts are straight to the point I'm trying to make. Once again, you only attack the messanger, not one word to address my comments. You also know nothing about my voting history. You make assumptions which are totally false but only I know that.

Dan, you got the man part right. You still haven't said anything worth a rats turd.

i think in this case the union started to think they were bigger than boeing, and they realy screwed up.

"Once again, as a business owner I pay plenty in taxes. I don't get taxed based on my net profit, If I was taxed on that I wouldn't complain. But, being taxed based on my gross is outright criminal.

Also, as a resident of Seattle/King County/Washington State I'd have to say we're already being taxed to a point that is not sustainable. Govenment growth is out of control. The larger our overall government is the more an average citizen has to pay to support their growth. If our state government could control it's growth the average citizen would see more $ in their own pockets.

I don't expect you to understand that though."

Exercise your right and move. You can move out of the city/county or even state.
Exactly what I've been saying. As we've grown in this state infrastructure, education, health, etc have ended up costing us more. Therefore our taxes have risen per person not declined. Of course there are always those who think there are magical mystery cuts that can be made to make up for that. Exactly how would you suggest our government control it's growth while the state is experiencing out of control population growth?
As for the deficit. I remember the GOP screaming bloody murder when we were holding onto a rainy day surplus. Then the F's are screaming about a deficit. A party of idiots. Notice in your link the bulk of her spending increase was on education. Got a problem with paying teachers more? It had reached the point a teacher couldn't afford to live in their own district. Is that where you'd like to cut? Giving you a break is going to either cost me more or lead to cuts somewhere.

I think we got a winner!!!!